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April 04, 2010

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Scott Fontenot

I worked with the house church movement in Vietnam for 12 years.

These excerpts describe perfectly the wonderful nature of the church there.

How I long to see our church in America rediscover and grasp these powerful and freeing principles.

He is risen!

Dave Ferguson

Scott, Thanks for your comment. I would love to hear more about your experience AND what are the barriers that keep this from happening in the West?

Jim

Dave:
Thanks for the Allen posts. Great stuff. I would love for churches everywhere to start thinking about what constitutes "church". What kind of gathering gets to be called 'church'? What is the bare minimum that must be in place for a gathering to call itself church? If we would really think that through we would likely discover that the elements would be few and, even more important, within reach of each individual Christian.

In my own context, we are coming to understand that church is far simpler than we have imagined...and THAT among people who are AARP qualified and who have lots of experience in the traditional way of doing church. It's a a joy to watch people actually grasping the claim and embracing it: "Where 2 or 3 are gathered together, there I am in the midst of them." We are seeing that the 2 or 3 so gathered is the basic unit of church.

I was teaching a course on how missional theology might shape our understandings of the care and counseling of the church. One of the students was a young man from Zimbabwe...a church planter. I asked him what a church he planted might look like. He looked at me with a puzzled expression and then said: "It looks like a group of people sitting in a field."

I think one thing that would help the exponential growth of the church would be for more of us to understand and recover the simplicity of it.

Keep up the good work!

Dave Ferguson

Thanks for the comment Jim. My knee jerk reaction to the question of what makes up a church is (this is in COMMUNITY speak - my context): "Where there are two more people in community who celebrate, connect and contribute." We have defined each of those words at COMMUNITY, so I know it is loaded, but what do you think?

Carl Herrington

This is great stuff and as leaders this is what we need to impart into our people to free them to engage in the Great Commission.

Jim

Before I say anything, Dave, I want to note that one of the things I love about your ministry and how you pursue it is your clarity. You all do a great job of saying in a few words what needs saying and doing so in a way that is quick and to the point. Not sure that's my gift! It's one of the things I learn from you all.

I like your response and know that it opens up a lot of conversations as to meaning, etc.

I'd say church is wherever two or more are gathered in the name of Christ...and THAT would require some unpacking too! Ha!

For me, the power of either is the recognition that Christ (and all that entails) is in the center (and all that entails) and on mission (and all that entails).

The practical outworking is that those who see that also see that they are "church" wherever the above happens. So church is not that building on the corner of such and such but even the tiniest gathering of those in the name of Christ...

We are fond of riffing on Shane Claiborne...."Brace yourself! God is getting ready to do something really small!"

Marty Schoenleber

Dave, Allen is the church planters hero. His books have been a constant inspiration. good post brother.

Dave

To see this lived out requires major challenges for our ecclesiology, role of clergy, simplicity of structure, and ordination of leaders. Reproducable simplicity that doesn't lose the centrality of the gospel is a challenge, but a goal well worth the arduous nature of the task.

Jim

Absolutely....

Dave: When you speak of multi-site churches, at what point do you say that the new site church is a church? e.g. would you see a micro group (e.g. Neil Cole's LTGs) as a church? If not, what distinguishes such a micro group from a church at a new site? Thanks.

KathyJ

Hey Dave, I'm also curious about your take on Jim's question in the previous comment!

Dave Ferguson

Jim (and thanks for the prompt Kathy)

I think your question is one of the most important questions for the emerging missional church in the west.

Theologically, I believe a church exists when "two or more come together in my (Jesus) name." So I definitely acknowledge that LTG's are a church.

But there is the question of praxis, "When in our system is a group of two or more considered a church?" If I had to answer that right now I would say that all groups, teams and campuses are recognized as a part of our church. They can become autonomous whenever they choose and they will receive the blessing of the larger community to become autonomous when we believe that autonomy is best for accomplishing the mission of Jesus.

How's that?

Push me some more. I love this conversation.

Dave

KathyJ

While I do think all communities of believers can be considered church, perhaps one could differentiate between new attractional sites vs. new missional scatterings. Both great and necessary church expressions but, in the multi-site scheme the sites require a bit of money to settle in where the missional moves ooze their way into their niches without overhead. All church, different strategies?

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